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4 years 6 months ago #19315 by Chessking
in reply to 7upMan:

I am an American, but that doesn't have much to do with being a Christian.

This is one tough navy, boy. They don't give you time off, even for being dead. -Clay

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4 years 6 months ago #19318 by 7upMan

Chessking wrote: in reply to 7upMan:

I am an American, but that doesn't have much to do with being a Christian.


It does have a lot to do with the strictness in which you adhere to your belief. You may have noticed that in European countries, even in the deeply catholic ones like Spain and Italy, people are less... how can I put it without offending you... well, strict (although the word I was looking for goes more in the direction of "fanatic") than Americans. Really, religion plays for you guys a much much bigger role in everyday life than in Europe.

At the same time, the US are the biggest producer of porn material *in the whole world*! Also, drug abuse as a whole (alcohol, prescription medicine, illegal drugs) is highest in the US. And of course the very fact that you have an extremely lax relationship towards violence while at the same time going absolutely ballistic when seeing private female parts in public (Nipplegate, anyone? ;-) ).

Chessking, I'm not trying to insult you, I just point out that Americans tend to have a very strict beliefs towards morals, beliefs that not many other cultures can share.

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4 years 6 months ago #19319 by Chessking
Although the U.S. was built on Christian beliefs, the nation has been becoming less and less Christian and less morally strict all the time. You pointed out some of the things that have been going on. Add to it that evolution and atheism are now the only beliefs that can be legally taught in public schools, the legality of same-sex marriage in most of the states, and that many people call themselves Christians when their actions show otherwise...

I think the situation is this: Moral strictness restricts freedom, so the government has to lessen its morals to promote freedom.

However, I do not know the situation in other nations, so I can not say for sure how they relate.

This is one tough navy, boy. They don't give you time off, even for being dead. -Clay

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4 years 6 months ago - 4 years 6 months ago #19320 by schmatzler

7upMan wrote: I just point out that Americans tend to have a very strict beliefs towards morals, beliefs that not many other cultures can share.


That may be true but European countries aren't without flaws either. Americans may censor the word "Fuck" or go crazy when they see nipples, but I come from Germany and sometimes we are more oppressing than other countries. Just some examples:

- People are forced to pay for cheap TV programmes, even threatened with jail time if they can't or won't pay
- There's a lot of hatred against immigrants, politicians even debate to let them pay for using our roads
- Bavaria is a state that is very different to all of the other 15. They claim to have the best school system but they behave like neandertals all the time. Also, religion plays a big role in Bavaria and is even taught at schools. Having the Christian cross in the classroom is standard in Bavaria.

Add to it that evolution and atheism are now the only beliefs that can be legally taught in public schools


I don't think that is neccessarily a bad thing. If people want to believe in a book that hasn't been updated for centuries (no offense, but societies DO change, the Quran has the same problem), they can do it.

I don't think of Atheism as a belief. I think of it more as a non-belief. Atheists don't have a god or a bible. They simply choose science as the center of their judgements.

If a religious person comes to me and tells me that I have to believe in god (that happened) I always ask this person where they would be without science. No TV, no fancy Samsung Galaxy, no cars...even religious people can't ignore science anymore. So I think this is the best way people can be taught at school.

If they find god or something else they can believe in later, it's their decision and their life. It's not like schools are forbidding this.

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4 years 6 months ago #19321 by 7upMan

Chessking wrote: Add to it that evolution and atheism are now the only beliefs that can be legally taught in public schools,...


From what I hear, there's a big movement in the so-called "Bible Belt" to change that, so that Creationism instead of Darwin's evolution theory will be taught at schools. Can you share some insight if this is indeed true? Maybe the media reports we read are blown way out of proportion.

schmatzler wrote: Germany:
- People are forced to pay for cheap TV programmes, even threatened with jail time if they can't or won't pay


Yeah, the state-sponsored public television is indeed on a long way down in terms of quality and political neutrality. However, this is the same with the British BBC that has a business model not unlike the German Public Broadcasting. However, if you are poor you can get exempted from paying the fees.

- There's a lot of hatred against immigrants, politicians even debate to let them pay for using our roads


Well, as a former Dresdener I can tell you that what you hear in the news about PEGIDA is mostly bullshit, plain and simple. That's why my question to Chessking about our media coverage of the Creationism movement at schools. I've simply come to distrust the mainstream media as a whole, seeing that most of German media belongs to (IIRC) four Big Media companies (Bertelsmann, Springer, Burda and Holtzbrinck).

- Bavaria is a state that is very different to all of the other 15. They claim to have the best school system but they behave like neandertals all the time. Also, religion plays a big role in Bavaria and is even taught at schools. Having the Christian cross in the classroom is standard in Bavaria.


Having lived in Munich for five years I can tell you that you can't compare the people in Munich with Bavarians. Bavarians, especially those in the small villages and far-away valleys, are indeed very backward. Maybe this comes from their excessive inbreeding, I don't know.

Also, in German schools you can choose between Religion and Ethics classes. At least in Eastern Germany the vast majority of parents decides for Ethics. Western Germany is more religious as a whole.

Still, to this day I have to meet a person who is in-your-face religious. Sure, some carry the fish ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys ) on the back of their cars, but it's not too obvious. Then again, maybe my personal experiences are just different from yours.

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4 years 6 months ago #19327 by Chessking
In reply to 7upMan:

As far as I know, the media in America is more reliable than what you describe in Germany. I think the Bible Belt is real, although I have not heard of it before now. The reason may be that the Bible Belt is in southeast America ( based on this ), while I live in the northwest corner. It is strange, though, that you heard about the Bible Belt in a different country, and I live in the same country as the movement and have not heard about it.

However, I doubt the movement will get anywhere. The First Amendment of the Constitution has a phrase has a phrase about separation of church and state . According to the link, separation of church and state is that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...". So, teaching only Christianity in public schools would be unconstitutional. Although the nation would retain its high moral standards and remain a Christian nation, America would be violating the foundation that it was built upon, the constitution.

On the other hand, there was a time in American history when Christianity was taught in schools. However, I don't think that these schools were government controlled or funded. In addition, there were very few people in the schools who were not Christians, so the teaching of Christianity in the schools didn't offend very many people or "prohibit the free exercise therof" of a religion or belief.

Still, to this day I have to meet a person who is in-your-face religious. Sure, some carry the fish (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys) on the back of their cars, but it's not too obvious. Then again, maybe my personal experiences are just different from yours.


I am glad you haven't met any in-your-face Christians, although they do exist. However, I don't think that God approves of their "aggressive evangelism." First Corinthians chapter thirteen of the Bible, commonly known as the "love chapter" says this: "If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn't love others, I would have gained nothing." Although evangelism is a common goal of many Christians, it is of no use if it is done without love. These people throw away logical reasoning for the "authority of their opinion". I call these people "aggressive debaters".

This is one tough navy, boy. They don't give you time off, even for being dead. -Clay

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