Ship Roles and Capabilities - Formerly Weapon Info

Well, I think you make a few good observations, Taurus. A discussion of the actual roles the ships will play in the mod is probably not a bad idea. I don't believe we've actually discussed this topic yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, MT. I think an understanding what these ships are supposed to be will help us refine the existing game missions as well as make developing new ones easier. It should also help with fine-tuning the game balance and adding new ships.

I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll give you guys my take on the roles these craft fill, along with what official sources say, and then we can discuss specifics. I'm reposting this official ILM comparison chart for reference. Please also remember that movie designs rarely even try to follow realistic military patterns. So we have to cut them a little slack.

• The attack fighters: It appears to me that the X-Wing and Tie fighters seemed designed for the movies to play the roles of a basic air (or space) superiority fighter, with an added emphasis on dogfighting for excitement. These are the craft who's primary job it is to engage other fighters and maintain control of local airspace. According to official sources both the Tie and X-Wing fighters are shielded. (This is necessary as, according to the TurboLaser Commentaries on SD.Net, the X-Wing's cannon output has been estimated in excess of 60 Giga-Joules of energy. This translates into 600 Giga-Watts of heat per 1/10 second exposure. Enough to literally vaporize (not melt) 1 cubic meter of solid iron. So clearly, unshielded craft should be particularly vulnerable to weapons fire. This works well for us I think, because shields absorb all damage from a hit and can be adjusted to specs that meet our needs. But I digress.) The Tie Fighter is considered extremely manuverable, but according to canon, the X-Wing is actually superior to the Tie Fighter in this and other areas (but not in speed). The advantage of a superior craft is offset by the small number of X-Wings available to the Alliance. Contrast this with the vast numbers of Tie Fighters deployed by the Empire. I don't know how we might handle this in the mod, since the number of players is already so small. Canon also states that X-Wings are extremely sturdy and capable of sustaining many direct hits. While Tie Fighters are considered quite fragile and easily destroyed. However, their small size makes them difficult targets, and their fire-linked, fast cycling gun pairs allow them to lay down much heavier targeted fire. These facts are supported by numerous independent studies. These ships were apparently designed and balanced for the movies to look good fighting each other. So basically, I think mission objectives for these types of ships should revolve around dogfights.
  
• The Interceptors: Here we run into our first bit of trouble with canon sources. Since the Tie Interceptor is not really an "interceptor" at all, in the traditional sense. According to official sources the Tie Interceptor was a next-generation Tie craft, based on Darth Vader's Tie Advanced X-1 prototype, intended to replace the old style Tie Fighters in response to the threat posed by the newer X-Wing. This means that this craft is superior to the standard Tie Fighter in every way, leaving little reason to want to fly a standard Tie; beyond sheer desire. I think the obvious answer to this might be to simply push the Tie Interceptor into the role of a real interceptor, thus reducing their total superiority and separating them from the standard Tie's role while retaining the standard Tie Fighter's value. To wit; an interceptor's job is defense, it would not be outfitted for an attack role. It's job is to protect a designated area (ship, base, etc.) from attack by intercepting attacking craft (attack fighters, bombers, etc.) with high speed. This will require some creativity on our part since there are few differences between offensive and defensive in SW weapons. But I think a defensive craft would be an excellent candidate for the ion cannons.
  
  The A-Wing is another example of a next-generation craft designed and built with no real respect for actual military conventions. As such, it shares much with the Tie Interceptor, being simply more of the same as before, just better. As MajorTom has already suspected, the A-Wing's guns do in fact pivot up/down by as much as 60 degrees. I offer the suggestion that we might also push this craft into the role of an actual interceptor for the mod.
  
• The bombers: Yay, more confusion from official sources! Despite being officially labeled as bombers, the B-Wings and Y-Wings are clearly not. They have only ever been officially seen fulfilling the role of fighters. If you really wanted to push it, you could say that the Y-Wings acted in a ground attack role at the Death Star (so did the X-Wings), but they were never actually seen engaging enemy fighters (very odd, I thought). As it is now, I place the Y-Wings in the same role as the X-Wings. They are simply older and slightly less capable. The B-Wings however, were never actually seen engaging anything. So the jury is still out on what their role is. But, in the absence of visual evidence, official descriptions will have to do. And they say that they're bombers. However, I would pose that they're more like fighter/bombers than true bombers. And as such should be faster and more manuverable (but less durable) than Tie Bombers, which appear to be true bombers. I think the bombers are also good candidates for ion cannons. Perhaps the Tie bombers could mount these in small turrets above or below to compensate for slow speed and low manuverability.
  
• YT-1300: Well, what can I say? Officially, these are designated as small freighters. But this is unlikely. They are far too small to carry anything in sufficient quantities to be profitable. They're more likely to be couriers or small personnel transports. But this is irrelevant, I'm just showing off . These ships were originally going to be used for the CUVs in the mod, but have since been replaced by an as yet undecided model. I think we should leave these as tough little cargo transports, and players can either protect them or fly them during appropriate missions.
  
• Combat Utility Vehicles (CUVs): Not an official SW ship, but nonetheless required for the mod. This ship will fill the role of highly mobile repair and resupply station during the game. This craft must have sufficient speed to travel across the battlefield unharmed to those who request it. Many ship models have been suggested for this role, but none have felt entirely right so far. My latest suggestion is the so-called Imperial Landing Craft. This ship is basically an Imperial Lambda shuttle with a large extended central hull. This seems like an excellent candidate to me, not too big and not too small. Small enough to zip around on the battlefield and interact with individual small fighters, but with enough internal space to realistically carry supplies and repair equipment. Here's a small pic.
  
  
  

I don't think we really need to discuss capital ships, right?

Obviously there's tons more information. But I didn't want to post too much at once. I think this should be good to begin with. Now, I think, we can start to discuss what changes to canon need to be made, if any. MajorTom, do you remember where you posted that list of game modes with their descriptions, so Taurus can read it?

As the Wings of Defiance mod's official "Enforcer of Canon", I will now be glad to answer any questions about the SW universe. If I don't already know the answer, I know where to get it. So ask away.

Taurus, I really like your idea of wanting the players to take on different responsibilities, work together and rely on each other. It would provide a good bit of variety. I think the main problem might be getting the bots to behave that way when you have a mixed team. But MajorTom would know more about that than me. Hopefully, it's something that can be done. I also like the idea of asymmetrical team goals. I think it lends itself well to the differences between the Empire and the Alliance.

*Edit* - A slight correction. Only some models of later Tie Fighter variants are shielded. However, all models of advanced Ties (like the interceptor and bomber) are always shielded. I was slightly confused by the several variants of the basic Tie Fighter design. This means we have the legitimate option of shielding them or not, as suits the game.

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*cynical_mode*
This "canon" stuff reminds me of religion. The bible; there are baptists, catholics, methodists, mormons, seventh day adventists, and who knows what else. They all have the same bible and all say they are "canon".
Some don't eat meat on fridays and some don't eat pork at all. Some don't have any wives at all and some think they are entiteled to as many as they can feed, kinda like livestock.
Some people jump from one religion to another looking for revelation and some people just stay in the same congregation because they like the girl or guy sitting two rows further up, some because they can delve into the basket that gets passed around. The point is everyone claims he's doing the "right" thing and it's still all relative to what they want to believe!

StarWars Mod:
Lets think for ourselves and do what we think and feel is best. We have a game here, and flux wasn't designed for the Starwars universe. We also have to do with people (players), all kinds of players who want to do what they want to, and each has his own perspective. They are not going fly a certain ship in a certain way because it's "canon".
So we, I repeat We, (and not some ambigous "canon") set down the rules for how our mod is going to be played. If it is fun lots of people will play, if not .....


The hsip roles have been defined, much the same as both SC and Taurus have described above. The speed table above has been a guideline for the ship speeds. If you look at the ini files you'll see the speeds and manouvreability are roughly proportional to the table.

A-Wing and TieInt are interceptors.
they are the fastest. Their speed, manouverability and weapons are tweaked, so that two equally skilled pilots will have a roughly 50% chance. To tentivly match them up the A-Wing was given slightly more powerfull lasers with a bit wider firing arc, and disruptor missiles to compensate for the Ion cannons on the TieInt.
My opinions:
a)I feel, they should have proportionally less manouvreability than a fighter because a faster vehicle needs more time to turn to slow down and turn around than a slower one. (this als makes them more defensivly orientated against fighters)
b)We could take the Ions /Disruptors off them, but i'd rather not
c) we could have this strategie: The interceptors could race ahead of the fighters and use Ions to disrupt the attackers. leaving them helpless for the following fighters to take care of. They would continue on because it isn't practicle to slown down and turn around
d) they would be somewhat less manouverable than a fighter, so their best defense against a fighter would be use speed to get away. They could swoop in for a quick attack on a fighter but would probably only get one or two hits.
e) they are more fragile than a fighter
f) they would still be a fairly good match against each other

TieF vs. X-Wing are fighters.
Currently tweaked as follows:
The speeds are proportional to the table
Faster than a bomber and more manouvreable but slower than an interceptor. TieF carries no missiles or shields und is therefore a bit more manouverable than an X-wing and also more fragile.
The way they are tweaked now the x-Wing has an advantage in combat (about 65/35).
To compensate for that we agreed a long time ago to allow the TíeF to respawn with more health (80%-100%) than the X-wing (50%) after it has been shot down.

in my opinion:
a) we need to make the TieF a better match for the X-Wing in the MP game! (coop and SP missions where you are attacked by a squadron of TieF can use a weaker version).

The bombers:

Have much less manouvreability than fighters and are slower with heavy armor to make them rather tough. Although defensivly armed a bomber has almost no chance of survival against 2 or 3 fighters. It will not be very effective for bombers to attack each other, but they could (if they don't have anything better to do).
Note: a ship with an Ion Cannon cannot have any ammo based weapons(missiles) because of the way the Ion cannon works since an Ion cannon is not native to flux.

Two versions of the B-Wing are forseen:
a Missile boat with unguided high explosive torpedoes for heavy stationary targets and a couple of slower powerfull guided missiles for heavy moving targets. lotsa decoy missiles with practically no damage (to occupy the point defense on targets so the slower guided missiles can get through). A good supply of less powerfull but quick guided missiles for fighters. (2-3 hits required to destroy a TieF)

The Ion cannon version of the B-wing, has no missiles. To protect itself from fighters it has the Ion cannon in a wider arc version, and wide arc high fire rate, short range lasers (due to lower manouvreability not usefull as an attack weapon)
It has 3 semi guided Bombs with an extremly (antimatter) high explosive payload. The score screen allows for a score based on bomb hits
the current dev. version of the B-Wing is the missle boat version (without Ion cannons) but has the high explosive "Bomb" to demonstrate how it works.

The Tie bomber is not tweaked at all in the currently avaliable dev. version.
it is intended, as a counterpart to the B-Wing and to play the same roll. It is armed with the so called "energy bomb" which has some simularity to the glaring white bomb projectiles seen in the movies. It's forseen to be roughly the same as the B-Wing as far as it's speed, manouvreability and functional roll goes.
The issue here is that TieB's "energy bombs" don't allow for a bomber hit score in the scoring screen like the B-Wing has. To alleviate this problem the only thing I can think of is that we would have to put the semi guided "Bombs" on the TieB too?
What do you guys think about that? [?].

SC, you forgot to mention the capability of the CUV to deploy weapon platforms (gunstars). However, we've already discussed the CUV (together with the differences between the Player version and the Bot version of the CUV) a lot, so please refer to that thread.
As far as the ship model goes, I would be happy with the suggestion above, we just need the model asap.

The rolls of the above ships are herewith defined in my opinion. The capabilities described can all be accomplished with flux and the scripting we have (of course final tweaking is forthcoming). I would like us to come to an agreement on the above so we can go on to other subjects. Is this possible [?]


How we want to use the Y-Wing (and an imperial counterpart for it) is up for discussion.
It is apparently faster than a B-Wing so we make it into a light bomber with a lot less payload than the B-Wing and a bit more effective against fighters? Give it a few missiles that would help against interceptors?

SC, can you edit the title of this thread to something like "Ship Rolls and Capabilities" so we can find it and use it for reference in the future?










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Sounds like you've got everything well in hand, MT. And it's good to see it all laid out this way. You really don't need "cynical mode" though. Everything I post is purely informational. I never intend to dictate what must be done. We all know that you're going to balance the mod to make it fun to play. It's my obligation to make sure you are aware of what is correct. We're not making up our own space game here, we're making a Star Wars game. So if you put a Tie Fighter on the rebel side and give it guns that don't work right and missiles then it's not Star Wars anymore. I know you're not a huge fan of strict canon, but there are certain levels of reasonable expectation for a Star Wars game. Of course we're limited by what flux can do. And I expect certain compromises to be made, but the reason I keep spouting canon so often is because I get the impression you would prefer to disreguard it altogether, and just make things up based on some memories of the old games. I definitely get the impression that you feel that "more canon = less fun". But I'm not sure why.

Now I am a big fan of canon, but I don't expect (or demand) that it be implemented perfectly. But the only alternative to me constantly bringing up canon issues and pointing out what is correct and expected, is for me to never say anything. Which means the game will be made up in an arbitrary manner and have no resemblance to Star Wars beyond some visual cues.

I know you are busy, MajorTom. And I know that it's annoying to have to take time away from modding to post responses to my posts. But not everything I post needs a lengthy explanation/argument of why it's not practical, not fun, or a waste of time to implement in the mod. Ultimately, you're the one controlling that. You don't need to pursude me to your way of thinking and justify why you aren't going to do something a certain way. Just say, "That's good information SC, thanks. I'll keep it in mind. I may have to deviate from SW canon to achieve certain game design goals, though." And then everyone's happy. I feel I've fulfilled my responsibility to the game as a SW fanatic, you now know what the correct and/or expected information is, and if you decide to do things a different way at least you'll know why. And you'll have a good reason to give the players when they ask about it later.

I love Star Wars, and a faithful recreation in a game is my Holy Grail. So I'm always going to keep up the pressure to adhere to canon. But I'm also realistic and reasonable. Just because I say it's canon doesn't mean I expect you to force it into the game at all costs.

In that vein, I also accept responsibility for being really annoying by doing all kinds of testing in SP that are really out of context for the mod and based on my own ideas of balance, without any reguard for all the work already done. And then presenting that information as the solution to all our problems. I'll stop doing that. It's just that my natural tinkering instinct constantly overwhelms me, coupled with the fact that I have a tough time sharing control of a project.

So just remember, what I say is only intended to help guide the design of the mod. I fully accept whatever final decisions you make on how it will actually work.

But I can't stifle my creativity either. I'm still going to pour out every idea I come up with, good or bad. And I'm still going to endlessly spout canon and my own opinions on how things should be, because I love to discuss them. Just don't let it get you all riled up. I'm not stirring up the masses against you. And I don't demand that you take time out and explain in detail every little reason why you won't do something my way. If you do add or change something because of my input then, "Yay, me!" You're the one writing all the code. You're in the control seat. Whatever you ultimately decide to do is fine by me, and I'll work with it as best I can. I want this mod finished as much as you do.

So, ummm, basically all this was to say that I'm fine with what you wrote about the balancing up there.

Oh, and I renamed the thread as per your request.

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